Only two days remain to watch Downton Abbey Season 2 on PBS’s website. The online feature ends on March 6th. If you have a Netflix membership, you can watch Season 1 on streaming video.
Netflix page for Downton Abbey Season 1
Season 3 is being filmed as I type. Once again we have to wait 10 anxious months before seeing the results.
Several questions were sent in by readers about Lady Mary and Pamuk. Perhaps readers can help answer these particulars.
Reader #1:
1) The whole plot revolves around Lady Mary not defending herself so it’s a mystery. WHY does she not defend herself? Pamuk said he would expose her if she didn’t let him have his way with her, and she never tells anyone that. So, she couldn’t even scream him off.
2) How did Pamuk learn where Lady Marys room was? No one asks her and that’s strange. We know that rat Thomas told him after threat of exposure from his peccadillo, but the plot should have someone asking.
Reader #2:
I still have two questions:
1) How did Pamuk convince Mary she would “still be a virgin”?
2) Why was Mary so hesitant to accept Matthew even prior to the news of her Mother’s pregnancy if she loved him? Was it that she couldn’t find the way to explain Pamuk’s death?
Do you have other questions that still remain unanswered?
Click on image.
Reader #1 Q1. Because women were inferior to men. No matter what, she was ‘damaged goods’ and in her high society, this was not tolerated.
Q2. I agree but I don’t think that it would make any difference! There is only so much the writers can do in an hour…
Reader #2 Q1. I think that he meant that he wouldn’t tell anyone so she would still be a virgin to society and to her future husband.
Q2. I have no idea! Probably because she was spoilt and did not fully deserve him at that point. I think by his proposal in Season 2 we are meant to see that she has matured a lot after seeing that there is more to life than parties.
Let’s see if I may answer your questions:
Answers to Reader #1:
1) I am guessing that Lady Mary had enjoyed a “flirtation” with Mr. Pamuk, but was shocked by his sudden appearance in her room and a combination of shock and uncertainty of what to do left her unable to defend herself. We are living in vastly more sophisticated time now and it is possible that Lady Mary had only rudimentary understanding of “sex” together with a well trained “women are subservient to men” indoctrination for that era. Even today, young women when confronted with rape have many conflicting emotions and if the man is moving ahead in pursuit of his desires, the young woman does not have time to process alternatives and make a firm decision until it is too late … many young women who have been raped report feeling unable to scream. They are in a state of extreme shock. So we might say we would fight our attacker off, but until we are in such a situation, we really do not know how we would respond.
2) It was clearly shown that Mr. Pamuk was led to Lady Mary’s chamber by Thomas the footman late at night. Mr. Pamuk had earlier rebuffed Thomas’ advances but blackmailed Thomas that he would not say anything (which would result in Thomas’ getting sacked) if he would do something for him (Mr. Pamuk). This also helps to explain how Thomas learns “survival” in his world – it is all about blackmail and taking advantage of situations.
Answers to Reader #2:
1) The show did not explain how Mr. Pamuk was able to convince Lady Mary that she would still be a “virgin” … but … it is widely understood in Muslim countries that when single men and women have sexual relations the women may retain their “virginity” by submitting to anal intercourse. Thus, when he said that to her, it could be due to his planning on only entering her anally.
2. Lady Mary was perhaps hesitant to accept Matthew even prior to the news of her Mother’s pregnancy because she was still trying to process and understand all of her young feelings. She had enjoyed flirtations but Matthew really was her first true love. And she was trying to understand her feelings in light of initially rejecting him, then growing to admire and respect him AND very powerfully, did not want him to think she loved him only because he was the heir to everything. She wanted him to know her feelings were true … but she also wanted to know for herself if her feelings were true …The Great War helped to speed this up for her . . . and yes, I think that Mr. Pamuk’s death had a profound impact on her … if her first sexual experience was a rape and a death, it seems understandable if she then had to deal with a period of frigidity and avoidance of sex. It is possible that she feared making love with Matthew would result in his death!!! We laugh, but young girls have these fears.
I hope this helps.
Ummm, gross. I’m fairly certain Julian Fellowes was NOT insinuating anal sex with the virginity bit here. There are several things we could take from his statement, including the fact that men will say whatever it takes! Again, GROSS. I digress.
I agree, Martha. There were many ways to pleasure himself and Mary and keep her hymen intact without resorting to THAT.
god, people can be so judgmental and prudish; you cannot possibly know what julian fellowes was or was not insinuating. furthermore, Kathryn Ryder was only giving her own opinion and sharing her theories, which is the point of this whole thing anyway.
I think Lady Mary really wanted the encounter- she finds Pamuk so fascinating and handsome and she desires him, so that even though she is shocked at first she gives in very easily. There are other ways than anal intercourse, also, for at least the man to be satisfied- ways that satisfy but don’t include penetration. I think she rejected Matthew because her aunt advised her and she is not used to making up her own mind about things, and she is so very wary of living less well than she does now.
You make very good points – and I had considered them, but considering the positions they were in when Mr. Pamuk died, I did not think he died following Lady Mary’s having performed fellatio on him. Where the script does not make plain to us … we are left with only our imagination.
Mary’s journey was and is the best part of Downton for me, and the Pamuk episode was a key part of that story. Much of Mary’s character throughout the series might be summed up as that of a woman whose constricted existence assumes a boring and predictable future, however privileged. I think it’s safe to say that no one like Pamuk had ever crossed her path, so she was unprepared to cope with her feelings, including those she experienced when he appeared in her bedroom. Others have addressed why she hasn’t defended herself, so I will just add that perhaps she was actually more focused on having lost Pamuk than on her reputation. I think that what Pamuk stirred in her might have allowed her view of Matthew to evolve, to see him as another “outsider” who could shake her world – albeit more gently and acceptably.
the PBS version was cut, unfortunately, in many small but critical places. Thomas led Pamuk to Mary’s room. It took maybe 2 seconds on screen, but all was clear.
It is curious that no one has commented on why no one asked Lady Mary how Pamuk found her room. This unfortunately is a plot flaw and makes no sense. Anna or her mother at least should have asked and later so should have Sir Richard. Thomas gets away with this and if discovered would have been fired.
Did Mary see that Thomas led Pamuk to her room? Because if not she can just assume that he might have followed her, asked any other servant, or found another way.
I think it’s assumed that Lady Mary invited Pamuk to her room though she never questioned how he found her. They were pretty flirty at dinner and he was clearly attracted to her. Mary was not raped. I agree with Ruth. Mary was young, innocent, bored to death and found this exciting, exotic, attractive man who desired her. She was tempted and she gave in. She DID nod yes and kiss him. She could have screamed hoping someone would hear or that he would run away.
I think he said “You can still be a virgin for your husband” and meant with a little imagination. She could present herself as a virtuous girl and with her looks, personality and money, any man would desire her.
Mary was hesitant to accept Matthew because she didn’t know her own mind. She didn’t realize she loved him and she was also afraid of losing her social position. Remember this is the only life she’s ever known. She of all the sisters enjoys her comforts. The unknown life she might share with Matthew was scary and she wasn’t sure she was willing to take that risk.
It is illogical that not even Lady Mary questions how Pamuk found her. It was known that Pamuks valet did not come and Thomas acted for him. Anyone with any common sense would have surmised that Thomas betrayed Lady Mary. Not one character who knew of the incident ever suspected or questioned Thomas.
I wish Fellowes would provide an explanation in the next season.
oof, I totally respectfully disagree about it not being rape. First of all, no matter what her reasons, in sex, no means no. done. But if we need to go into interpretations, here is what stands out the most strongly to me: she had amazing social pressures on her that would have made actually screaming aloud (as he pointed out) terrible for her future (as is made clear the rest of movie, with the amazing amount that is done to avoid the scandal being known). At that time, inappropriate sexual relations were almost always blamed on the woman, and had hugely dire results for their lives/possibilities (and none or relatively little for those of men). The potential result of screaming was potentially worse, if you can imagine, than succumbing to his wishes and hoping it would always be kept quiet. and again, what really matters is, she said NO, and as I hope everyone is aware, there can be no gray area here, anytime someone who has said no is pressured to have sex that is rape. They won’t say that in the series, because at the time, people were not thinking about it that way. But I dearly hope that we have evolved to the extent that today we can recognize it as rape.
Yes, Thomas led Pamuk to Mary’s room. Thomas made a move on Pamuk as he was dressing him (Thomas had been assigned to Pamuk as his valet since Pamuk’s valet had stayed in London because he didn’t speak English) and Pamuk blackmailed Thomas, saying he wouldn’t report the incident if Thomas would agree to help him later when he might have need of someone who knows the layout of the house.
For me, how Mary handles the Pamuk crisis, gives us an insight into her core values.
In spite of her selfishness and pride, and desire to always be in control of any relationship, she did value and respect Matthew enough to know that she would have to come clean with him about her night with Pamuk,, to allow him to withdraw his offer of marriage, if he chose. Her mother questioned whether that was necessary, but Mary insisted that she had to tell him before she accepted his proposal!
From then on, I knew that she would develop into a character whom I could admire!
This whole scene bothered me deeply. I would argue Mary was raped. (Sexual coercion is a form of rape.) I talked it out with my husband for quite a while after the scene, after we watched it together and he commented, “Um, wasn’t that a bit rapey?”
1) She did not invite him. 2)She did not greet him joyously; she told him to go and threatened to scream, and did not when she was convinced that bringing attention to this would ruin her future. 3) Her body language was negative. She immediately got out of bed and covered her (already covered) body as much as possible with her sheets. 4) She didn’t actually ever say ‘yes’. All he did was convince her not to directly say ‘no’ and raise the alarm.
I realize that modern-day rape definitions don’t apply in 1920, but he indirectly threatened her with ruin if she did not submit. How is that not rape?
I am glad to see this discussion. This scene has been on my mind a lot as I would also interpret the what takes place as a rape, very reminiscent of what happens to Uma Thurman in Dangerous Liasons. I have never understood why that was not further discussed in the series. However, after Pamuk dies Lady Grantham asked Lady Mary specifically if he forced her and she says no. I was surprised by her response as the events leading up to it would suggest otherwise. I rationalized that they must not have had actual sex because she never worries about pregnancy and she says she was not forced. Then I was super confused by her reference feeling like Tess of the d’Urbervilles in Season 2 as Tess was raped and eventually kills her attacker. It has long bothered me that we have had to continuously revisit the Pamuk story line without getting any clarification on these issues.
Pamuk has been around and he knew he did not have to disturb her hymen, for both of them to have pleasure.. Remember, if it was torn she could always tell her future husband it was due to horse back riding, maybe thats why in those days women rode side saddle??? I am stilll mad Edith wrote Pamuks dad. Did he ever come to check this out? Did Edith not think, in those days, that it did not only throw a bad light, on Mary, but also their other sister, and their father and mother. as well. Any one in society could start gossip about any young debutant . . I must say I have enjoyed this mini series and have found other sites about what went on in this time,in England. I also lost my grandmother, with the flu in 1918. My mom said that so many died that there were wagons going around to pick up the deceased and they were quickly burried in large common graves. My moms 6 sisters were by the bedside when grandmother died. She sat up before she passed and said to her daughters,” do you see them”? ” there are angels all around my bed”. Then she passed. This has always been a great comfort to our family and me. I look forward to seeing Dalton Abby asap.
Reader #1:
1) Well, Mary was obviously attracted to the man, and he was attracted to her, and there was quite a lot of flirting. Now Mary had been bored all her life, she was destined to marry the heir, and as she said to Matthew in episode five: “Women like me don’t have a life. We choose clothes and pay calls and work for charity and do the season, but really we’re stuck in a waiting room until we marry.” has been told what to do with her life since she was a little girl.
Now as to why didn’t she defend herself: because even having a man in her bedroom was a huge schandal that would ruin her forever.
2) It was Thomas who led Pamuk to Mary’s room after trying to kiss him.
Reader #2:
1) Girls like Mary, in Edwardian times were probably not as well-educated as girls in modern times on the subject of sex. Usually, before the marriage, the mother would inform the bride about her duties/chores, and generally it was the husband’s duty to ‘teach’ his wife what was expected of her.
It would not be hard for Pamuk to convince Mary that she would still be virtuous, because she didn’t know very much about it.
2) I think she was still trying to understand her own feelings, and she is of course afraid of what Matthew will think of her when she tells him. She can’t bear the idea of marrying him without him knowing about Pamuk. And yes; if she had told him then Matthew would probably have acted very differently and it would not have had a good outcome, because Matthew was a bit of a prick, yes.
Sarah H- Mary did agree. She nodded yes and then grabbed Pamuk and kissed him. She asked “Will it hurt? Is it safe?” He said “Don’t worry you can still be a virgin for your husband.” She replied “heavens is this a proposal?” he responded in the negative. It did seem like rape to me at first, but upon rewatching the episode, it becomes clear that Mary is attracted to Pamuk, bored and longing for some excitement. In the Christmas episode when she finally tells Matthew and he asks why she did it, she said lust or boredom.
I would love to see what would have happened had Thomas had a sense of humor and led Pamuk to, oh say Cora’s room? :) Then Pamuk’s intentions would be revealed and Thomas would be more the hero…. ? hmm
I don’t think it was a rape. Mary wanted him. And whomever suggested anal sex has got to be kidding. I’m just wondering if perhaps they didn’t get very far into things before Pamuk croaked and Mary is still a virgin, but the fact that she even had a man in her bed, even just kissing him, was sheer scandal. Noboday asks her what happened in the bed…I guess they just assume there was intercourse…is that what we are to assume? Anyway, I’m hoping more information will come out on this in Season 3, i.e. a scene of Mary and Matthew in bed where they actually discuss the details. Do you think Matthew is a virgin? Don’t forget that during this period and the Victorian period, there was A LOT of illicit sex going on such as affairs, etc. People were bored.
That no one figured out and blamed Thomas is more of a mystery to me than how Pamuk could take pleasure without breaking Mary’s hymen. It is not just Muslim societies but other Mediterranean-influenced ones (especially Brazil) where anal sex preserves virginity.
Just thought you would like to know that I received today The Unofficial Downton Abbey Cookbook – from Lady Mary’s Crabe Canapés to Mrs. Patmore’s Christmas Pudding – More Than 150 Recipes – from Upstairs and Downstairs by Emily Ansara Baines.
via the Amazon Vine Program
Nifty cookbook to add to my collections. It has some interest-sounding recipes.
I scanned the cover and posted it on my Facebook page.
I have an extensive collection of cookbooks, including many that were published 100+ years ago as well as many facsimile copies of even older ones. I have “modernized” some of the recipes that have been handed down in my family as well as some in these old cookbooks. (some are on my blog)
I have already marked the recipes I intend to try. The first will be Mrs. Patmore’s Madeira Pound Cake. I even have the Madeira on hand.
Amazon also offers this book on Kindle.
The Unofficial Downton Abbey Cookbook: From Lady Mary's Crab Canapes to Mrs. Patmore's Christmas Pudding – More Than 150 Recipes from Upstairs and Downstairs
@Andie Paysinger really? We can cook as 100 years ago?
For 4 I think it has something to do with mary’s pride as well. She did say that she is compelled to not marry each man her family wants for her. In this case it is Matthew and she still can’t admit it to herself that she is giving in to this man and to her family’s wishes. The fact that there was uncertainty in Matthew’s position also heightened it. Perhaps at that point she still saw him as “the heir” and not exactly “Matthew” yet.
I think Thomas killed Pamuk to keep him from telling anyone about Thomas’ pass at him. Put a drug in his drink or something.
I am also more interested in why more people don’t wonder how Pamuk really died. I have always thought Thomas put a drug in a drink or something – it’s just too odd for someone of Pamuk’s young age to have died from a heart problem (not impossible obviously, just rare – he’s obviously had other experience with getting his heart racing and done fine). Thomas tells O’Brien at the end of the episode…why does she never use that against him when she begins to dislike him?
Thomas poisoned pamuk with salt of sorrel from ep one.